«WK: I never assumed that we will only mae strictly political plays. But, at the same time, I do repeat that theatre as an art form - whether people like it or not - is always political, and proof of this has existed since ancient times. I quickly learned that in Poland, people are afraid of this word, because it has negative connotations for them; it reminds them of parades or propaganda. Of course, this understanding of politics is a result of our history. But even if we use a different word, it doesn't change the fact that theatre that is seperated from a reflection of the context in which it functions is merely a shallow artistic form. It is high time to recognize that making political theatre doesn't mean you're directing while waving a flag. All work in theatre always takes place on two levels - the social context and the artistic context. There are many factors to be taken into account when determining which of these contexts is to be given a more prominent platform in a play. In Poland, there's lots of political problems on the table, so it is easier to focus on the social factors.
JW: Is this why you prefer working in theatre in Poland rather than in Germany?
WK: For certain. To paraphrase Heiner Muller, I could say that by working here I have the luxury of political and social situations that compel me to take a firm position on certain matters. This is a very luxurious situation - to be able to be an artist in a country where there are thousands of political problems as yet unresolved. Problems that theatre can and should take up. From economic inequality to a false interpretation of history, to a deeply rooted xenophobia, to an effective lack of separation of Church and State, to the influence of extremist politicians and their medievil mindsets regarding morality...
JW: The fact that we have these problems is itself a subject for a lengthy discussion. In Western Europe, many of these problems don't exist, and perhaps this is why artists there seek out other subjects and take up problems of form?
WK: I think that in Germany, political theatre has quited down somewhat over the years. We've seen a return of something that could be called bourgiouse theatre - albeit theatre that is technically efficient and performed at a very high level of quality, but has less of a radical tone to it on current affairs. People like Christoph Shclingensief, who was once at the head of a group of artists who took up political theatre, has now marginalized himself somewhat. There are different trends there.
JW: German theatre was an important point of reference for Polish theatre in the 1990s. How do things stand now?
WK: Lessons could be learned on both sides. The difference begins with theatre education which, over sees, is based on completely different principles than in Poland. In German theatre schools, beyond the basics, there is a huge emphasis on physical fitness for actors. And it goes beyond gesture and choreography. There is Meyherhold's biomechanics, there is stage acrobatics. Actors are taught how to use their bodies in a variety of different ways, they are shown that acting is not limited to saying or thinking. The Stanislawski method which dominates here in Poland is treated with less regard in Germany, which I guess from our point of view could be seen as a negative thing.
JW: You often speak of actors in the category of the extent to which they are consciously present in a play...
WK: Geneally speaking, the conscious participation of an actor can serve various purposes. In Belgium, to give an example, the actors are present on stage to a large degree - as people, almost as private individuals or sometimes even only as private individuals. Who they are and what they have to say is not just a starting point for crafting their role, but actually becomes a subject of the play. In Poland, this method is not seen as much. Even if we don't want to admit it, the actor doesn't exist on stage merely as a representation of a role - but also as an artist and a human being - this type of being takes center stage in theatre. Only later does the literary text and the director appear. This kind of consciousness of course changes how we look at the matter. Because we don't hide behind this illusion, we don't consider make believe worlds, instead we can have a dialogue between real humans. This is all connected to Brecht's teaching, which is not studied closely in Poland.
JW: To the extent that the positivists - which you put on in Warsaw three years ago - are played here in Poland, Brecht and Muller are not. Does this mean Polish theatre doesn't like them or doesn't need them?
WK: Brecht is making a comeback in Poland. Brecht plays will be performed in Krakow, Olsztyn, and Gdybia. I think it's not a coincidence that this is taking place now. His kind of theatre has been overlooked too long, mainly for historical reasons.
JW: But Mullier is having more difficulties in Poland.
WK: Well, an awareness of Muller exists only on paper in Poland, and the plays can only be seen once in a while; never systematically. He ought to be very well liked by Poles, because he does an excellent job showing what life was like under two dictatorships. Poland knows something about the experience of going from dictator to dictator with some aggressors and wars in between. But this also means our consciousness is very focused on seeing life as a series of conflicts and on the notion that enemies exist, and the "who against whom?" question is fundamental. Mullers texts are straight from the source. But, his way of writing, his language and poetry seem strange and alien to us. People say that he is "too German." Yes, but is Shakespeare somehow very Polish? Or Chechow?
JW: As a director, you spent two years in the country side, but you put your own plays on in Gdańsk, Warsaw, Krakow and Wrocław. Only one in Jelenia Góra. You prefer big cities?
WK: When I was in the country side, I was somewhat isolated thanks to the nature of my work. But I value this. The audience in a bigger city probably has more means to comprehend a work of art. The more alternatives one has, the wider the scope of ones' tolerance. This is the basic difference; this notion of broadening your horizons. I am also always fascinated how much stupidity and hatred small towns are capable of generating. This is why I'm not at all concerned abotu what's happening in Jelenia Góra or the theatre there. If you recall the arguments and terminology that was used against us, then you know that nothing better could have taken over there after we'd left. But on the other hand, it is kind of a complement to be so intensively bid farewell. It seems that we therefore had a big impact on the local community. And what's really interesting is that what happened in Jelenia Góra is now taking place in most of Poland. Koszalin or Łódź and similar cities are getting rid of their artistic directors because politicians don't like "elitist" theatre. They prefer easy theatre; bread and circuses. They prefer to have voters who are not challenged to think, but rather who are dumbed down and entertained. Thoughtlessness is safe.»
